Cet article publié le 31 octobre 2010 a été antédaté  (il est actuellement daté de 2005)  pour archivage. 

Texte en anglais de la video 1

[00:00:00.000]    The expert witness has declared as follows:
[00:00:07.000]    “My name is Johanes Julliaan Gijsbert Jansen, born November 17, 1942, living in Amsterdam, retired”.
[00:00:16.000]    He has submitted a CV which is attached to the hearing and he says in a footnote to it:
[00:00:24.000]    “I was a professor in Utrecht from 2003-2008. With the editing of the Kramers’ Quran
[00:00:32.000]    translation, I mean annotating, removing errors, and so on”.
[00:00:37.000]    This is another footnote of the CV. It seems clearer to me if I pick that up first,
[00:00:42.000]    and also read that out. [Moszkowicz: “Please”]
[00:00:47.000]    “Professor doctor Hans Jansen is an Arabist; he studied Arabic and Semitic languages
[00:00:53.000]    in Amsterdam, Leiden and Cairo. The common thread throughout his career
[00:00:59.000]    is the study of religion in general and Islam in particular.
[00:01:05.000]    He is one of the few Islam-watchers in the Netherlands who dares to look without rose-tinted glasses
[00:01:12.000]    at recent developments within Islam. At the University of Utrecht,
[00:01:17.000]    he was a professor of contemporary Islamic thought.
[00:01:22.000]    He also worked at the Universities of Leiden and Groningen.
[00:01:27.000]    From 1991 to 1997, he was a member of the National Advisory Council for Development Cooperation,
[00:01:34.000]    and participated in the controversy over the meaning and meaninglessness of international aid.
[00:01:42.000]    In addition to his academic career, he engaged in numerous ancillary activities in the Middle East,
[00:01:47.000]    including for the Red Cross in Iraq in 1990. He has visited almost all countries
[00:01:52.000]    in the Middle East for longer or shorter periods, and resided for almost four years in Cairo,
[00:01:58.000]    where he led the Dutch Institute from 1979 to 1982.
[00:02:06.000]    He wrote among other things a well-noted biography of Muhammad, which was translated into German,
[00:02:12.000]    and a standard work on the ideology and theology behind the 1981 assassination
[00:02:18.000]    of Egyptian President Sadat. His books are not only translated into German,
[00:02:23.000]    but also in Yugoslav, Turkish, and Indonesian.
[00:02:28.000]    He has published articles in including [newspapers/magazines] De Volkskrant, Trouw,
[00:02:32.000]    HP/De Tijd and the now defunct weekly Opinio.
[00:02:37.000]    His book ‘Islam for pigs, monkeys, donkeys and other beasts’ became a modest bestseller
[00:02:44.000]    in the Netherlands in 2008. The peculiar title of this book is derived from the Koran,
[00:02:51.000]    which for Muslims is considered the literal word of God, in which non-Muslims are defined with these animal names.
[00:03:00.000]    In 1992 he edited an edition of the authoritative Quran translation of Prof. Kramers.”
[00:03:08.000]    Jansen is also a popular commentator on radio and TV programs
[00:03:13.000]    such as Nova, Pouw and Witteman, and RTL News.
[00:03:18.000]    And on his website you can find the list of publications and an abbreviated CV.
[00:03:26.000]    With regard to the Quran translation, Mr. Jansen said in the hearing:
[00:03:35.000]    “With the editing of the Quran translation of Kramers, I mean annotating, removing errors, etc.
[00:03:42.000]    Kramers wrote this work without having access to the scientific works one should have.
[00:03:50.000]    I tried to edit his translation in such way as he himself would have preferred
[00:03:54.000]    if he had had access to all works”.
[00:04:00.000]    Then he is asked about any possible connections to Mr. Wilders, and he says:
[00:04:08.000]    “I know Geert Wilders. The first time I met him he was a member of the VVD fraction,
[00:04:16.000]    A member of the Foreign Committee of Parliament. This committee had consulted
[00:04:20.000]    a number of experts on religion and politics.
[00:04:24.000]    I have met Wilders over the past ten years about 4 to 6 times.
[00:04:29.000]    That was about everything. I can remember one time he asked me whether I knew
[00:04:33.000]    a suitable Muslim who was willing to talk with him about Islam.
[00:04:39.000]    Wilders has sometimes called me and I responded to questions he then asked.
[00:04:43.000]    I can’t remember what those questions were and don’t know what he has done with my answers.
[00:04:50.000]    I’m regularly called by journalists and politicians with questions on matters concerning Islam.
[00:04:57.000]    For example where a particular verse in the Koran is. I answer them.
[00:05:05.000]    In answer to a question by the Prosecutor, who points at a letter from Mr. Pestman
[00:05:09.000]    of April 20, 2010, ‘whether I have participated in the creation of the movie Fitna.’
[00:05:16.000]    That I don’t know. I do not know what people do with the answers I give them.
[00:05:22.000]    Wilders has asked me where in the Koran it says that infidels must be slain,
[00:05:27.000]    or that they are pigs. I do not know whether he has used my answers for Fitna.
[00:05:33.000]    At the least, Wilders did not ask me to advise him for the movie.
[00:05:38.000]    I was also been questioned about this by Twan Huys [Dutch TV]; he also insinuated this.
[00:05:44.000]    I’m angry about that. This morning there was an article in De Volkskrant
[00:05:49.000]    about me and my link to Wilders. I express my amazement that people think
[00:05:54.000]    I will be lying today because I talked with Wilders once.
[00:06:00.000]    Mr. Moszkowicz tells me this letter states there exists a link between me and Mr. Wilders
[00:06:05.000]    via The International Free Press Society in Denmark.
[00:06:10.000]    I did not even know that Wilders had something to do with this organization,
[00:06:14.000]    until I read it this morning in De Volkskrant. Lars Hedegaard has asked me
[00:06:20.000]    to be on the advisory board of this organization.
[00:06:24.000]    I did that, but I never developed any activity within this organization.
[00:06:31.000]    The Magistrate tells me that he looked up that press release on the Internet.
[00:06:37.000]    Under the press release, separate from this article, is a list of names of the Board of Advisors,
[00:06:43.000]    with my name. I’ve never seen this press release.
[00:06:48.000]    I also never signed a call to support Wilders.
[00:06:53.000]    The Magistrate tells me that on the Internet it is possible to click further
[00:06:57.000]    to support the petition. I certainly have not done that.
[00:07:03.000]    Simon Admiraal” — the next expert, who also is heard by the Magistrate —
[00:07:09.000]    “was a doctoral student of mine, from 2004 to 2008, at Utrecht University.
[00:07:16.000]    I agreed with him not to see each other for a while in connection with this case.
[00:07:22.000]    Ms. Sultan” — the third expert who has been heard — “I do not know personally.
[00:07:27.000]    I have read her book and I watched the broadcast on Al-Jazeera”.
[00:07:34.000]    Until here on the background and contacts of Mr. Jansen,
[00:07:39.000]    and then the hearing continues on the contents. The title reads:
[00:07:46.000]    “About the statements Wilders had made, as included in the summons.
[00:07:52.000]    You [the Magistrate] ask me if I come across quotes that are not true.
[00:08:01.000]    There are tens of thousands of books, says Mr. Jansen, who say the same things,
[00:08:05.000]    and some of those things are controversial.”
[00:08:09.000]    And thenceforth [I have to take a zip of water] questions of Mr. Moszkowicz…
[00:08:13.000]
[00:08:21.000]    Then questions of Mr. Moszkowicz based on the individual citations
[00:08:25.000]    in the subpoena, and here are briefly described.
[00:08:31.000]    On questions by Mr. Moszkowicz, page 2, last quote: “Islam wants to dominate” till “civilization.”
[00:08:40.000]    Mr. Jansen replies: “Muhammad, 570-632 AD, said ‘I have been commanded
[00:08:50.000]    to make war against the people until they testify there is no God but Allah
[00:08:54.000]    and that Muhammad is Allah’s messenger. Only by speaking out with this confession
[00:09:00.000]    may they make their goods and blood untouchable for me’.
[00:09:05.000]    That means you may not just take it away. There is no imam who will refute this statement.
[00:09:15.000]    Also if you turn on the Dutch Muslim Broadcaster, you will hear this.
[00:09:20.000]    From the pulpit, this phrase is often proclaimed. I also point at the Quran, Sura 9:29,
[00:09:28.000]    which states that war must be waged to prohibit what God and his Messenger have forbidden.
[00:09:34.000]    From these texts indeed speaks the will to dominate.
[00:09:39.000]    I also refer in this context to a leading book, ‘Reliance of the Traveller’, in this is stated
[00:09:46.000]    that it is a duty for every Muslim to join the war, until Islam triumphs.
[00:09:53.000]    In numerous sermons, even in the Netherlands, it is said that Western civilization is evil and corrupt
[00:10:01.000]    and needs to be overthrown. Islam is proud of the destruction of earlier civilizations
[00:10:06.000]    such as Christianity in the Middle East and the Zoroastrian civilization [in Persia].
[00:10:11.000]    The theme ‘destruction’ often appears in the Quran, the Sharia handbooks, and standard works of Islam.
[00:10:19.000]    All unbelieving societies must be transformed. If it is not by the Quran, then with the stick.
[00:10:26.000]    You must consult an imam for the location of this last quote.
[00:10:31.000]    I read it first in a Sufi magazine in Egypt, the quote is attributed to Caliph Osman”.
[00:10:40.000]    Then another quote that is shown by Mr. Moszkowicz, and that is Fact 1, the first quote:
[00:10:49.000]    “Moderate Islam does not exist”. Response by Mr. Jansen: “That is correct.
[00:10:56.000]    There are moderate Muslims, but no moderate Islam.
[00:11:00.000]    The content of Islam is established. This cannot be altered.
[00:11:04.000]    The public prosecutor asks whether I can say something about the percentage
[00:11:08.000]    of moderate Muslims in the Netherlands. There was an American study, the Pew Survey
[00:11:15.000]    by, among others, Dr. Esposito. He surveyed Muslims worldwide.
[00:11:22.000]    This study shows approximately 20% of all Muslims take all Islamic rules literally and seriously.
[00:11:28.000]    60% have other things to do, but agree with Islam. This is called the ‘Silent Majority’.
[00:11:37.000]    The remaining 20% wants to turn away, but dares not, out of fear of reprisals.
[00:11:43.000]    It is difficult to distill realistic information from the survey”, says Mr. Jansen.
[00:11:49.000]    “Many respondents are reserved. In this survey was a question on whether the attacks
[00:11:54.000]    on September 11, 2001 were carried out by Jews or by Muslims.
[00:11:59.000]    The majority said ‘by Jews’. Many respondents indicated an understanding for these attacks”.
[00:12:07.000]    Then another part of a quote is shown to Mr. Jansen:
[00:12:13.000]    “There is no distinction between good Islam and bad Islam.” Mr. Jansen:
[00:12:19.000]    “That’s correct, there is only one Islam, and to Muslims Islam is synonymous with good.
[00:12:25.000]    Without a doubt there will be a differences between Muslims in Indonesia and Morocco,
[00:12:29.000]    but the content of Islam is established”. Judge: Then another quote:
[00:12:34.000]    “Islam is the Quran and nothing but the Quran”. Mr. Jansen:
[00:12:39.000]    “Islam is more than the Quran, namely the Shariah and the traditions.
[00:12:44.000]    But the Quran is important because in it is stated that everything comes from God.
[00:12:49.000]    Usually the Quran is published in an annotated version.
[00:12:53.000]    Then after every Qur’anic verse a comment is included from the tradition.
[00:13:00.000]    With the tradition I mean the collected canonical traditions about Muhammad’s actions and expressions.
[00:13:07.000]    Most Muslims do not make a sharp distinction between these comments
[00:13:11.000]    and the verses themselves, and regard all as the Quran”.
[00:13:17.000]    Then the comparison between the Quran and Mein Kampf. Jansen says:
[00:13:22.000]    “I understand that the Dutch get angry about this expression. Mein Kampf, however
[00:13:27.000]    is freely available in the Middle East and a standard or popular book in every bookstore.
[00:13:32.000]    Bill Warner, I know he is not authorized by the court as a witness in this trial,
[00:13:37.000]    has compared how many of passages in the Quran and Mein Kampf are anti-Semitic.
[00:13:43.000]    In the Qur’an there are more such passages. The article you can find on the Internet,
[00:13:48.000]    and the end results of his research have so far not been challenged”.
[00:13:55.000]    Then the term “Elimination”. Mr. Jansen says: “The Quran talks of ‘waging war’.
[00:14:00.000]    In the Quran are 164 passages that call to war. About the killing of infidels for example
[00:14:08.000]    in sura 9:30, ‘anyone who believes that Christ is the Son of God must be slain’.”
[00:14:18.000]    Then the term “Dogs”. Mr. Jansen says:
[00:14:22.000]    “This word appears once in the Quran, as a naming for non-Muslims.
[00:14:27.000]    Furthermore, non-Muslims are called ‘foul beasts’ ….”

 

Texte anglais de la video 2 

00:00    Following quote, page 2, first paragraph, last sentence.
00:07    “This quote by Oriana Fallaci is partly correct,” says Mr. Jansen.
00:14    “The evil not only comes from the Quran, but also and especially from the Sharia.
00:19    The Quran is important in the sense that it says that it is not a human invention
00:24    but the Divine truth.”
00:28    Then the expression “The Fascist Islam”. On this Mr. Jansen says:
00:34    “I’m no expert on fascism. I find ‘fascism’ a curse. It implies there is no room for dissenters.
00:42    In this I see the resemblance with Islam.”
00:48    Next quote: “Sick ideology.” Mr. Jansen says:
00:53    “I do not want to express a value judgment. Islam but is an ideology.
00:59    Islam calls for action by its supporters, and that action is aimed at the entire society.
01:04    From divorce to the organization of banking. Other religions do not demand that in this manner.
01:12    The ideology comes forth from the Quran. That is where it begins, but also the Shariah
01:17    and the traditions must be counted in. I have just shown that, and why,
01:22    many Muslims view the Sharia and the traditions with the Quran as one.”
01:28    Then a quote: “Ban that wretched book.” Mr. Jansen says:
01:33    “My personal opinion is that banning is not a good proposal. People should rather read the Quran,
01:39    for in the Netherlands already much is forbidden which the Quran calls for, such as killing infidels
01:45    or the cutting off of hands.” This quote is regarding to Fact 1 on the summons.
01:53    Then with respect to Fact 2 on the summons. There the questioning continues on to page 3,
02:01    second paragraph, and in the sequel I understand it’s about the demographic
02:07    development of Muslims in Europe. And Mr. Jansen says the following about this:
02:11    “I was recently at a conference organized by the Burke Foundation.
02:16    Statistics were presented on the demographics of Muslims in Europe.
02:22    You can ask Bart Jan Spruyt [of the BF] about this aspect. The Islamic world is growing,
02:27    Europe is shrinking. This has for example to do with the Dutch having
02:30    an average of 2 children per family, and Muslims have more.
02:35    American demographers have calculated this, there are ever-increasing numbers of Muslims in Europe.
02:40    This can be problematic, because as I said, 20% of them believe literally in what Islam commands
02:47    and want to carry that out. These people want to call the shots over others.
02:52    There is no religion that wants to go that far with domination as Islam.
02:57    What in the quote is wrong is that Muslims will draw to the countryside.
03:02    Islam is primarily an urban religion.” As Mr. Jansen says.
03:08    He further says: “In the Netherlands, politics and religion in principle are separated,
03:13    but in Islam this is not so. In Islamic countries the secret service can take action
03:18    when imams in sermons proclaim things that are not appreciated.
03:23    In the Netherlands this in principle is not so. In Dutch mosques anything can be said
03:28    without the state being able to interfere. This is why many Muslims,
03:33    especially radical leaders, move to Europe.” According to Mr. Jansen.
03:38
03:47    Then page 4, first paragraph, and that’s the quote in which professor Israeli is cited,
03:57    then Mr. Jansen says: “Professor Israeli bases this statement on expressions of Sayyid Qutb.”
04:05    Judge: I do not know how to exactly to pronounce it but it’s spelled q-u-t-b.
04:16    [Mr. Jansen continues] “A prominent man, the most widely read Muslim writer ever.
04:21    He said that the Muslims have tried twice to win the battle
04:25    and that now the third round, the final battle, is being fought.
04:29    On a question from the prosecutor on what powers would be behind this invasion attempt,
04:35    I can not give an explicit answer, but I do can point to the document ‘Le Projet’ [The Project]
04:42    from the 30s or 40s of the 20th century. This document comes among others
04:48    from the father of Tariq Ramadan. In this is stated
04:52    that Muslims must make use of Western freedoms.
04:56    Once you have a large group, you automatically get the 20% who will fight for Islam,
05:03    [who] will attempt to impose the rules of Islam. As an example, I can mention
05:09    that there are Muslim countries that do not take [their] people back.”
05:16    Then over to page 4, quote “The Muslim population doubles every generation”.
05:25    Asked about this, Mr. Jansen says: “On this I cannot really say anything.
05:30    There are articles stating how large the percentage of Muslims within a society must be
05:36    in order to expect problems.”
05:40    Further to page 4, third paragraph from the bottom, quote: “Islam is a violent religion”.
05:48    Mr. Jansen: “Where the Bible merely contains dreams or stories containing violence,
05:53    the Qur’an contains commands to violence in the imperative.
05:58    It is an obligation, and the reward is great. I can quote Roger Scruton about this:
06:05    ‘Christianity is a religion of failure, but became a success, Islam is a religion of success,
06:12    but leads to monstrosities, and thus to failure.’” As Mr. Jansen stated.
06:18    “Fortunately not all Muslims take the command to violence seriously, but some unfortunately do.
06:25    There is an expression: ‘first a warning with the tongue, then a spanking by the hand
06:32    and finally murder with the sword’. I will look up for you [the Magistrate]
06:38    exactly where that is stated. A Muslim will undoubtedly say that it’s in the Quran.”
06:47    Then to page 5, quote: “This book incites to hatred and murder”. Mr. Jansen:
06:56    “Yes. Anyone who reads ten pages in the Quran will see that this is true,
07:00    as long as it is only about unbelievers.”
07:04    Then on page 6 of the summons, on the Quran and the size of the Donald Duck [comic].
07:12    Mr. Jansen answers: “There of course are verses that are not hateful.
07:16    Care for the orphan, giving of alms. If you were to leave out all hateful verses from the Quran,
07:23    it would be considerably thinner. Then about one quarter to one-fifth would remain.”
07:32    Next quote, page 6, “The Quran is not a dead letter”. Mr. Jansen says:
07:39    “Every Muslim father wants his son to learn the Quran by heart.
07:44    In everyday parlance the Quran is often quoted. If you ask a Muslim
07:50    whether Sharia law must be applied, he will say ‘Yes’. When you then ask
07:55    if a thief’s hand then must be cut off, he sometimes says ‘No’,
08:00    because he doesn’t know that this is in the Sharia. If you say that it’s in the Sharia,
08:05    he then will say, ‘Well, then so be it’. For resistance against the Shariah is apostasy,
08:12    and for that, according to the Sharia, the death penalty is required. Historians of religion
08:18    will say that the religion is what believers make of it. But Muslims believe that Islam
08:24    — thus everything written — is valid, and exists without possibility of influence by its followers.
08:34.    On questions by the prosecutor that he understood that in Indonesia
08:38    a mild form of Islam is adhered to, I say that there also Islam becomes ever more strict.
08:47    The imams there say the same as in other Muslim countries, more headscarves appear there,
08:52    and to take the wind out the sails of the fundamentalist Muslim groups,
08:57    the [Indonesian] government is taking Islamizing measures. Therein lies a danger.”
09:06    Next quote from page 12 of the summons, on Moroccan boys, and then the quote:
09:17    “They beat up people because of their sexual orientation” Mr. Jansen says:
09:24    “It’s difficult to respond to that. I mention as example a fatwa issued by an imam, Al-Moumni.
09:32    When a young boy asked whether in the context of jihad one may commit debauchery with girls,
09:37    he answered that it is better to just get married. He then does not explicitly forbid it.
09:44    Many Moroccan boys often are unconsciously busy with their religion.
09:49    There are known examples of banging on the windows of non-Muslims in the neighborhood.
09:54    This cannot really be called criminal, but eventually the non-Muslims will move out.
10:00    Homosexuality may not become public. In Iran there is the death penalty for it,
10:06    and this is also carried out. Al-Moumni said gay sexuality is a disease,
10:13    thus you cannot help it. Which he himself found progressive.
10:18    The Quran says that sodomy is a grave sin, worse than adultery.
10:25    Who commits sodomy must be slain, and lesbian behavior is equivalent to adultery,
10:30    for this is also the death penalty. You can find this for instance in the book
10:35    ‘Reliance of the Traveller’, a standard work on the Sharia for Muslims.”
10:43    Then back to page 3, the quote, “Their behavior stems from their religion and culture”,
10:54    again on Moroccan boys. Mr. Jansen responds:
10:59    “That’s somewhat correct. This involves in particular the efforts at harassment.
11:05    Banging on windows and throwing of stones. This is being done primarily by brats,
11:10    but their parents approve of this behavior. This behavior is insufficient to take up arms against,
11:15    but is enough to make people move out. We would love it if we could find something
11:21    outside of Islam which explains the behavior, but Islam approves it,
11:26    and provides a justification, also when it comes to snatching purses.
11:31    When the Magistrate asks me whether a Moroccan boy will ever snatch a purse of a Muslim,
11:37    I say that this is possible, but I consider that rather unlikely.”
11:52    The hearing continues on the film Fitna. On this Mr. Jansen says the following.
11:58    “I’ve seen this film in the studio in Hilversum, on request by the NOS (broadcaster).
12:03    I was asked whether I wanted to comment, whether the translations were accurate
12:07    and if I ever seen the images before. I do not dare to guarantee that the version I’ve seen
12:14    later in edited or photoshopped form started to circulate on the Internet.
12:20    Whether the Sura translations are adequate?” Mr. Jansen: “Yes.
12:25    Sura 8 verse 60: the singer in the film only repeats the word ‘terrorizing’
12:33    while in that Quran-verse it only appears once.
12:38    Terrorizing,” according to Mr. Jansen, “is a correct translation of ‘tuhibuna’.
12:45    You of course can always try a synonym such as ‘strike fear’ or ‘make scared’,
12:50    but an Arab will translate this word as ‘terrorizing’.
12:56    How do I know images are shown of what apparently are imams?
13:03    I haven’t seen their diploma, but the clothing and ways of talking raise
13:08    the impression in me that those are imams. The book shown with oriental writing
13:14    is of course the Quran.
13:18    It disappoints me that the Prosecutor did not have this researched well in advance.”
13:24    Mr. Jansen continues: “In Muslim circles I have never seen anyone give the Hitler salute.”
13:29    And then further also says: “Statements about Jews and violence against Jews
13:34    are not uncommon in the Muslim world. These statements are not out of context.
13:40    Every believer finds of his own belief that it is superior. If you do not pursue Islam,
13:46    then you are a bad person. If you as a Muslim leave Islam, there is the death penalty.
13:52    Is a criminal court does not assign this punishment, an individual must execute this.
13:59    Allah has ordered that Islam should be spread globally, if necessary by arms.
14:05    Whether I can mention sources for this?” Judge: Then Mr. Jansen mentions
14:09    Sura 2:16, 4:89, 9:36. “Fortunately, many Muslims are too decent to execute this.
14:21    Christianity is less obligational.” Judge: Mr. Jansen talks about preaching the word to all peoples.
14:29    Next question, whether violence against women is common practice in Islam.
14:33    Mr. Jansen says: “You’d have to ask a sociologist. The Quran does state
14:38    that if you’re afraid that your wife does something that is not allowed, you must hit her.
14:55    Sura 4:34. There are men who take this seriously, and preachers proclaim this verse.”

Texte anglais de la video 3

[00:00:00.000]    “The West dominates, but according to Muslims, Islam should do this,” as Mr. Jansen says.
[00:00:08.000]    Whether radical groups have any influence on mosques in the Netherlands? Mr. Jansen replies:
[00:00:15.000]    “Yes, especially Saudi Arabian Islam, Wahhabism, and the radical Salafists,
[00:00:23.000]    of that there is an increasing influence. I base that on newspaper articles,
[00:00:29.000]    reports from the AIVD [Dutch Intelligence Service], but also on conversations
[00:00:33.000]    with people in that world, for example Abdul Jabbar van de Ven. He told me proudly
[00:00:39.000]    that he studied in Saudi Arabia and pleads for the introduction of Sharia law
[00:00:45.000]    and a ban on music. For that matter, this can be traced back
[00:00:49.000]    to a statement by Muhammad.” And then a quote:
[00:00:54.000]    “I have been sent to remove the lute, the jar and the cross.” Mr. Jansen continues:
[00:01:00.000]    “I also talked to two guys who make a television program called ‘Sal and Ab’.
[00:01:06.000]    They too were proud that they had been to Saudi Arabia.”
[00:01:13.000]    Up until this point the questions asked were in response to specific citations in the subpoena.
[00:01:20.000]    There now follow a few general questions. First questions by the Prosecutor.
[00:01:28.000]    On questions by the prosecutor, Mr. Jansen says the following:
[00:01:33.000]    Asked whether in the Muslim world there is talk of secularism, Mr. Jansen says:
[00:01:38.000]    “No, the opposite is true. I know there are friends of Islam who claim that there is
[00:01:45.000]    a slow extinction of the faith, but I think they are wrong.
[00:01:50.000]    The mood currently is more religious than ever. When I was in Cairo in 1966,
[00:01:56.000]    there was not a headscarf to be seen. Now there is not woman seen without a headscarf.
[00:02:01.000]    It is a symbol of the introduction of the Sharia. There are libraries full of books
[00:02:06.000]    that defend my position and only a few shelves that say there is secularism.
[00:02:12.000]    Those few shelves, however, are in charge in the Netherlands.
[00:02:16.000]    They get the money for scientific research.”
[00:02:21.000]    Mr. Jansen continues: “You ask me about the separation between religion and politics.
[00:02:26.000]    Muslims know that they are two different things, but that’s about all.
[00:02:31.000]    You must also keep in mind that at the beginning of Islam, in Muhammad’s days,
[00:02:36.000]    society was stateless. In Islam, politics and religion therefore went hand in hand.
[00:02:44.000]    The sultans were always in control. There was some rope-pulling with religious leaders,
[00:02:50.000]    but there could not be any distance between religious and secular leaders.”
[00:02:56.000]    Judge: I must read the word ‘and’ thus ‘religious and secular’
[00:03:05.000]    “The sultan is the boss, and the imams take the place of parliament.
[00:03:11.000]    In Iran this is different, because there the ayatollahs are in control.”
[00:03:19.000]    “The Magistrate tells me my name appears in the summons on page 10.”
[00:03:30.000]    Mr. Jansen then says: “This quote is the headline of an article I wrote,
[00:03:35.000]    Judge, and I didn’t know in advance that this would end up in the film” [Fitna].
[00:03:42.000]    Then a question by the Prosecutor: “The Prosecutor asks me how it could happen
[00:03:48.000]    that the medieval Christians and Jews could have a separate status.”
[00:03:53.000]    Mr. Jansen relies: “I refer to sura 9:29. Christians and Jews may temporarily,
[00:03:58.000]    Judge, for a fee, be exempt from Islamic rules.
[00:04:02.000]    It is so, however, that they can not be exempted from tax.
[00:04:07.000]    One must continue to admit that Islam is superior. This is symbolized by the collector of the tax,
[00:04:13.000]    Who strikes a blow on the neck as a symbol of decapitation.”
[00:04:18.000]    Mr. Jansen continues: “I know the friends of Islam use this example as a sign of tolerance,
[00:04:24.000]    but rather it is not, according to my lights. It remains a symbol of Islamic superiority.
[00:04:31.000]    It is the myth of Andalusia that Christians, Jews and Muslims can live together.
[00:04:37.000]    Weinstein, a classicist in Dublin, wrote about this.
[00:04:42.000]    This myth came to live in Russia at the time of the Tsars,
[00:04:48.000]    to make it possible for Jews to study [at the university].
[00:04:53.000]    In this context I point out a study by Rodney Stark, who has calculated
[00:04:59.000]    that there were no fewer pogroms in Andalusia than elsewhere in Europe.
[00:05:06.000]    The Prosecutor asks me about Granada, whether that was the peak of the Jewish flowering
[00:05:12.000]    within Islam. I do no know so much about that,” answers Mr. Jansen.
[00:05:20.000]    Then there are a number of questions by the defense [Mr. Moszkowicz]
[00:05:27.000]    On questions by Mr. Moszkowicz: “You tell me that a number of Dutch Islam experts,
[00:05:31.000]    including Professor Leemhuis, have circulated a so-called fact sheet.
[00:05:37.000]    I had a quick look on this fact sheet, but there are so many spelling errors in it
[00:05:41.000]    that I didn’t pay much attention to it. You tell me that the fact sheet says
[00:05:45.000]    that in the film Fitna, sura 47:4 is only partially quoted, and thus out of context.”
[00:05:54.000]    The response by Mr. Jansen: “That it is partially quoted is correct,
[00:05:59.000]    following the quote in the film, there should be quoted that when the opponents are overcome,
[00:06:05.000]    they should be sold as slaves. The second half of this verse in my eyes
[00:06:10.000]    Does not make the first part less bad. The whole verse says nothing more than
[00:06:15.000]    that you only stop cutting off heads once the enemy surrenders,
[00:06:21.000]    or has converted to Islam. It thus is not taken out of context.”
[00:06:27.000]    Thus Mr. Jansen, and he illustrates: “In sermons and in general by Muslims,
[00:06:33.000]    this verse is quoted as is done in Fitna. That is, only the first half.
[00:06:39.000]    There are also two verse-enumerations, see for example the translation
[00:06:44.000]    of the Quran by Kramers I edited, and scholars from Kufa,
[00:06:48.000]    who view this as one verse, but scholars form Basra see it as two verses.
[00:06:53.000]    Sura 47:4, as quoted in Fitna, and Sura 47:5, which is what follows.”
[00:07:05.000]    Mr. Moszkowicz seemingly continues, and then Mr. Jansen says:
[00:07:10.000]    “You tell me that on the fact sheet is stated that in Sura 2:256 states
[00:07:18.000]    that there is no compulsion in the religion. When the Quran was revealed in Mecca
[00:07:27.000]    it called for freedom for the followers of Muhammad. When the Quran
[00:07:32.000]    was revealed in Medina, death to the infidels was preached.
[00:07:36.000]    Ultimately, that last position in Medina has won. As time progressed,
[00:07:42.000]    the original texts were annulled by later revelations. This is called “abrogation”.
[00:07:51.000]    Leemhuis [involved with that ‘fact sheet’] should know that Sura 2:256 has been abrogated.
[00:07:57.000]    For Muslims, there is no discussion about this. I will forward you later the
[00:08:02.000]    the location of this abrogation, but you should also ask Leemhuis, under oath.”
[00:08:08.000]    Then Dr. Jansen in this respect sent a letter to the Magistrate
[00:08:20.000]    with respect to that Quran verse 2:256 “There is no compulsion in religion”
[00:08:26.000]    in which he gives a detailed information about that verse.
[00:08:30.000]    Do you want me to also read out that later? [Mr. Moszkowicz: “Please.”]
[00:08:34.000]    All right, I first continue the hearing, then I go to that explanation.
[00:08:43.000]    Mr. Jansen has just said, this is an abrogation, and then the next point
[00:08:54.000]    from the fact sheet as shown by Mr. Moszkowicz, says that
[00:08:58.000]    the Quran also calls to peace and reconciliation. For instance in the verse 2:84,
[00:09:05.000]    “You shall not shed each other’s blood”. Mr. Jansen says concerning this:
[00:09:09.000]    “That is not correct, this verse applies only to Muslims among themselves.”
[00:09:14.000]    And regarding Sura 10:25 Mr. Jansen says
[00:09:19.000]    — there it says ‘God calls for the house of peace’ —
[00:09:25.000]    “The residence or the house of peace is Islam, in opposition to the house of war.
[00:09:30.000]    This verse thus means that you must become Muslim and should come and live
[00:09:36.000]    within the Muslim community.” Then Sura 2:224,
[00:09:44.000]    “Make not Allah an impediment to … making peace between the people”.
[00:09:54.000]    And Mr. Jansen responds on this:
[00:09:58.000]    “I read this complete verse now in the Quran I have with me.
[00:10:03.000]    There it’s about an oath made in haste. This does not have to prevent you
[00:10:08.000]    from still doing the good. Usually then it is about too quickly banishing your wife.
[00:10:13.000]    I do not see the word ‘peacemaking’, I’d rather translate the word as
[00:10:18.000]    ‘make it up again’ or ‘repair’.
[00:10:22.000]    Then Mr. Jansen is shown Sura 3:103, “Think of God’s grace to you
[00:10:30.000]    when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together, and you became brothers by His grace”.
[00:10:37.000]    Mr. Jansen says: “According to the commentaries, this is said against the various groups in Medina. It addresses to Muslims. ‘Becoming brothers’ means nothing more
[00:10:49.000]    than the conversion to Islam. ‘Think of God’s grace’ usually means
[00:10:53.000]    ‘read the Quran’. It is an internal Muslim verse.”
[00:11:01.000]    Mr. Jansen continues: “As Western philologist you may think ‘I use these verses
[00:11:06.000]    to illustrate the peacefulness of Islam’, and maybe Leemhuis also sincerely means this.
[00:11:14.000]    It is important however that these texts are addressed to Muslims, and it’s about
[00:11:19.000]    what Muslims think of them. I do not know any verses,” he says,
[00:11:25.000]    “which call for peace with non-Muslims. Co-existence is not in the Islamic dictionary.
[00:11:32.000]    In practice it does happen, but only when all the armies of the non-Muslims
[00:11:36.000]    — for example the armies of the West — are stronger.”
[00:11:40.000]    Thus the hearing of Mr. Jansen, also undersigned by him.
Texte anglais de la video 4

[00:00:00.000]    the Quran also calls to peace and reconciliation. For instance in the verse 2:84,
[00:00:05.000]    “You shall not shed each other’s blood”. Mr. Jansen says concerning this:
[00:00:09.000]    “That is not correct, this verse applies only to Muslims among themselves.”
[00:00:14.000]    And regarding Sura 10:25 Mr. Jansen says
[00:00:19.000]    — there it says ‘God calls for the house of peace’ —
[00:00:25.000]    “The residence or the house of peace is Islam, in opposition to the house of war.
[00:00:30.000]    This verse thus means that you must become Muslim and should come and live
[00:00:36.000]    within the Muslim community.” Then Sura 2:224,
[00:00:44.000]    “Make not Allah an impediment to … making peace between the people”.
[00:00:54.000]    And Mr. Jansen responds on this:
[00:00:58.000]    “I read this complete verse now in the Quran I have with me.
[00:01:03.000]    There it’s about an oath made in haste. This does not have to prevent you
[00:01:08.000]    from still doing the good. Usually then it is about too quickly banishing your wife.
[00:01:13.000]    I do not see the word ‘peacemaking’, I’d rather translate the word as
[00:01:18.000]    ‘make it up again’ or ‘repair’.
[00:01:22.000]    Then Mr. Jansen is shown Sura 3:103, “Think of God’s grace to you
[00:01:30.000]    when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together,
[00:01:34.000]    and you became brothers by His grace”.
[00:01:37.000]    Mr. Jansen says: “According to the commentaries, this is said against the various groups in Medina.
[00:01:42.000]    It addresses to Muslims. ‘Becoming brothers’ means nothing more
[00:01:49.000]    than the conversion to Islam. ‘Think of God’s grace’ usually means
[00:01:53.000]    ‘read the Quran’. It is an internal Muslim verse.”
[00:02:01.000]    Mr. Jansen continues: “As Western philologist you may think ‘I use these verses
[00:02:06.000]    to illustrate the peacefulness of Islam’, and maybe Leemhuis also sincerely means this.
[00:02:14.000]    It is important however that these texts are addressed to Muslims, and it’s about
[00:02:19.000]    what Muslims think of them. I do not know any verses,” he says,
[00:02:25.000]    “which call for peace with non-Muslims. Co-existence is not in the Islamic dictionary.
[00:02:32.000]    In practice it does happen, but only when all the armies of the non-Muslims
[00:02:36.000]    — for example the armies of the West — are stronger.”
[00:02:40.000]    Thus the hearing of Mr. Jansen, also undersigned by him.
[00:02:50.000]    Well, then there is a comment made by the magistrate that in consultation with you the fact sheet is not attached as a writ.
[00:03:01.000]    Then I go to the note by Professor Jansen on the Quranic verse 2:256
[00:03:11.000]    which was mentioned in the hearing, and on May 10 2010
[00:03:14.000]    in what appears to be an email, he wrote to the magistrate in Amsterdam.
[00:03:28.000]    1. Memorandum on the Qur’anic verse 2:256, “There is no compulsion in religion”.
[00:03:38.000]    Islam teaches that this verse is ‘abrogated’, i.e. ‘canceled’ by later revelations.
[00:03:44.000]    Note: Sura 2, where this Quran verse occurs, is according to friend and foe alike the first sura
[00:03:50.000]    that was revealed in Medina. I consider it impossible that the complainants
[00:03:55.000]    or the Prosecutor could find an Islamic lawyer or an academic Arabist who contradicts this.
[00:04:01.000]    I regard it therefore as superfluous to spend additional work, time and attention
[00:04:07.000]    to this issue of dating and chronology. The dating of Sura 2 is widely undisputed.
[00:04:13.000]    See for example W. Montgomery Watt, Introduction to the Qur’an’
[00:04:18.000]    Page 2:20, top: “All chronological classifications consider sura 2 as the first of the Medinan suras”.
[00:04:34.000]    And Jansen then follows with this note: Also the Quran translation by Fred Leemhuis
[00:04:39.000]    states that Sura 9 dates from Medina (p. 129), and was revealed after Sura 5.
[00:04:44.000]    Of Sura 5, Leemhuis then says that this was handed down after 48 (p. 77), and so on.
[00:04:51.000]    Also according to Leemhuis, Sura 2 thus is older than Sura 9.
[00:04:57.000]    Then Jansen continues: Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, established himself in Medina in 622,
[00:05:02.000]    where he died in 632. Sura 9, according to friend and foe alike dates from a later phase
[00:05:09.000]    of that period in Medina, in any case, according to most scholars, after the conquest of Mecca
[00:05:15.000]    by the Muslims in 630. There are even scholars who believe that Sura 9
[00:05:20.000]    is the last Sura that was revealed in Medina. Eventual contradictions between Sura 9 and Sura 2
[00:05:27.000]    are therefore decided, in the sense that the rules as laid down in Sura 9,
[00:05:32.000]    must be the prevailing rules of Islam and the Sharia.
[00:05:37.000]    How can we be so sure that this is so? In the ‘Reliance of the Traveller’,
[00:05:43.000]    the oft-mentioned English-Arabic Sharia handbook by N.H.M. Keller, we read on p.629:
[00:05:54.000]    “When two primary texts seem to contend, [the judge] gives precedence to:
[00:06:00.000]    those which supercede previous rulings.”
[00:06:04.000]    The word ‘previous’ here is crucial for the understanding. This book, ‘Reliance’,
[00:06:08.000]    I mention here only because of the fact that in this case it is already more or less known,
[00:06:13.000]    but there no handbooks on Islam and the Sharia exist that are made by Muslims for Muslims
[00:06:19.000]    that on this matter state anything different.
[00:06:23.000]    The principle of abrogation is explicated in the Qur’an itself; it is not the invention of outsiders.
[00:06:29.000]    Qur’an 2:106, in the translation of Leemhuis and then a quote:
[00:06:35.000]    “Whatever of our revelations that we abolish or cause to be forgotten we replace by
[00:06:40.000]    something better or similar”. End quote.
[00:06:44.000]    ‘Abolish’ is the word with which in both Leemhuis as Kramers clarify as “abrogate”.
[00:06:53.000]    Qur’an 10:52: “God abolishes”.
[00:07:00.000]    Sura 9 dates from the period in Medina, which means: 622-632 AD.
[00:07:07.000]    It is not the first sura of that period, because Sura 2 is considered as such.
[00:07:12.000]    Sura 9 in time is thus after Sura 2, and Sura 9 consequently abrogates the rules
[00:07:18.000]    contained in Sura 2, when these are in conflict with provisions contained in Sura 9.
[00:07:25.000]    Sura 9:29 in the translation of Leemhuis, contains the phrase
[00:07:31.000]    “Fight against those who do not believe in God” and who “Do not forbid what God
[00:07:36.000]    and his Messenger forbid.” This forbidding cannot be made consistent with
[00:07:42.000]    “there is no compulsion in religion”, of 2:256. Forbidding, after all, implies coercion.
[00:07:50.000]    The imperative with which verse 9:29 begins, ‘qaatiluu’,
[00:07:69.000]    is better translated as “waged war upon”. The root ‘qtl’, which the word is related to,
[00:08:05.000]    means ‘killing’. The specific grammatical form being used here, according to grammarians,
[00:08:12.000]    could just as well be based on a meaning such as “trying to kill each other”.
[00:08:20.000]    Also here, neither the complaining party nor the Prosecutor will find an Islamic legal scholar
[00:08:26.000]    or an academic Arabist who contradicts this. Thus says Mr. Jansen. And he continues:
[00:08:33.000]    That this struggle or war at a given moment ends, is in practice correct.
[00:08:39.000]    In theory the Islamic legal scholars and scholars of Islam nonetheless establish
[00:08:43.000]    that the duty to wage this struggle will remain until the Last Day.
[00:08:47.000]    In the ‘Reliance’, the author states on page 602, the last lines of the page,
[00:08:53.000]    that the obligation to wage Jihad in the English text: “the time and place for it”,
[00:08:59.000]    remains until the return of Jesus, in the English text: “the final descent of Jesus,
[00:09:05.000]    upon whom be peace”. Also here, the complaining party or the Prosecutor
[00:09:11.000]    will not find an Islamic legal scholar or scholar of Islam or academic Arabist
[00:09:15.000]    who contradicts it. The Islamic legal scholars and scholars of Islam
[00:09:20.000]    therefore traditionally make a sharp distinction between the
[00:09:24.000]    ‘the House of Peace’ and ‘the House of War’.
[00:09:28.000]    This distinction is the foundation of Islamic international law.
[00:09:34.000]    About this dichotomy an extensive literature exists. I can hardly imagine that an academic Arabist
[00:09:28.000]    or an Islamic legal scholar or a scholar of Islam desires to publicly deceive a court on this matter.
[00:09:50.000]
[00:09:54.000]    Then I get to the last paragraph, and its title is “In the issue that correction
[00:10:01.000]    of un-Islamic behavior should be done first verbally and then by force”:
[00:10:08.000]    From the canonical tradition-collection of Muslim, 9th century AD…
[00:10:17.000]    A very comprehensive English quotation, would you want me to read that?
[00:10:22.000]    Moszkowicz: “Not the English quotation, according to me.”
[00:10:27.000]    Then I will say here what Professor Jansen said about this:
[00:10:33.000]    The announcement of hand, tongue and heart is also in the canonical collection
[00:10:38.000]    of Abuu Daawuud: Kitaab as-Salaat (Al-Khaalidii)
[00:10:45.000]    “Who sees a forbidden thing he can change with his hand, let him change it
[00:10:52.000]    with his hand: and if he cannot, then with his tongue, and if he cannot,
[00:10:58.000]    then with his heart, and that is the weakest form of faith.” End quote.
[00:11:04.000]    I am prepared if necessary — according to Professor Jansen — when the Prosecutor
[00:11:08.000]    or the complaining party disputes this, to further elaborate these issues.
[00:11:14.000]    And he still has a closing comment, and that final point is:
[00:11:19.000]    At last I can inform you about my surprise that a Dutch court steeps itself so much
[00:11:24.000]    in the details of religious and exegetical issues. This is contrary to everything
[00:11:29.000]    I have been taught in elementary school, college and at the university
[00:11:33.000]    about the separation of powers and the separation between religion and politics,
[00:11:37.000]    between church and state, etc. — Thus said Professor Jansen,
[00:11:42.000]    with all kinds of esteem, Amsterdam, May 10, 2010. That … Professor Jansen.
[00:11:53.000]    Moszkowicz: “Thank you very much. President, with gratitude for what has already happened,
[00:11:58.000]    there is a letter, and I’d like to request you, at this time also to read out,
[00:12:06.000]    because the representatives of complainants assumed a particular relationship
[00:12:10.000]    between Mr. Jansen and my client Mr. Wilders, there has been a correspondence about it,
[00:12:17.000]    and on May 10, 2010, the Magistrate, Mr. Martens wrote a letter
[00:12:23.000]    to Mister Pestman [lawyer for the complainants] about the alleged link,
[00:12:27.000]    and that letter is not long, but I would like to disclose it.
[00:12:34.000]    Yes, is this is a letter that belongs to the pleadings at this time?
[00:12:39.000]    Umm, yes, it is in my file, and then I think it also is in yours.
[00:12:44.000]    Okay, we will have a look at it.
[00:12:48.000]    Umm…  just an announcement of order here first, perhaps because I currently am doing less,
[00:12:53.000]    but I’m starting to get it a little colder, is it just me or …
[00:12:58.000]    it gets a little cooler here, okay, well above there [public] they also say that,
[00:13:01.000]    so we will try to ask to do something about that later, my proposal is now to pause now for lunch,
[00:13:07.000]    I’m taking a look at the members of the OM if that is okay, the defense, okay? Yes?
[00:13:14.000]    Then we’ll pause until 13:00, I urge you all to be back in time,
[00:13:20.000]    thus at least before 13:00, and then we will continue reading the files,
[00:13:23.000]    and will in the meanwhile also have taken a look at your request.
[00:13:27.000]    Moszkowicz: “It is of May 10…”
[00:13:29.000]    I have made a note, yes.

 

 

 

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